RSF chief concerned by journalism becoming part of „diplomatic games“

Praha 15. února 2025 Sdílet na Facebooku Sdílet na Twitteru Sdílet na LinkedIn Tisknout Kopírovat url adresu Zkrácená adresa Kopírovat do schránky Zavřít

I'll pick out three of your quotes to discuss and analyze. The first one is, “journalists don't die, they are killed.” Those are your words. Does that mean that war journalists around the world are deliberate targets of attacks in armed conflicts?
We've seen a change in the past decades in the way belligerents behave with the press. In the past, journalists were like collateral victims, collateral damage. Now they are being deliberately kidnapped, killed and targeted. It's very worrisome because it makes a journalist not only a witness, but also a pawn in the war or diplomatic games. That's not the role of the press to be a token in the vast game, which is something that has no relationship with press work. So we're very concerned. And we think that the responsibilities of armed forces and politicians are huge, because there are certain practices that are jeopardizing the press and encouraging people to target it. That should not be the case.

So the blue press vest is not a sufficient protection anymore?
We've seen contexts - I'm thinking about Gaza, for example - where journalists report that when they speak with the population, people don't want to talk to them for fear that they're going to be hit by a missile because journalists are now targets. So that's the exact contrary of how things should be. If you look back to the 1960s or 70s, journalists were considered a safe place, safe people to be with. And that's the opposite now.

Speaking of Gaza, you point out that over 50 journalists were killed last year, most of them in the Palestinian territories, which you describe as the most dangerous place to work as a journalist nowadays. You have brought this to the attention of the International Criminal Court. Do you have any evidence of violations of the Geneva Conventions, which recognize journalists as civilians in conflict?
It's very important to remind people that even though journalists might sound like a different category, they are civilians. So which means that they should be protected as civilians, and that they have a life as civilians. And we are very cautious about the investigation we're conducting on the case of journalists killed in Gaza. But we have lots of evidence that proves that some journalists were obviously killed as part of massive bombings, but some others were deliberately targeted. 

Very early on in the conflict, for example, we conducted an investigation on the case of Issam Abdallah. This was not in Gaza, it was in Lebanon. But it's an example of a journalist who was filming from a car that was labeled TV. There had been recognition planes over the car. So we don't understand how it's possible that it could have been a mistake. It's obvious that there were two two missiles fired at the car, which killed Issam Abdallah. This is an example of how we work. We conduct detailed investigations on each case.

Those are severe accusations and Israel denies that their attacks on journalists are deliberate. Have you discussed it with the Israeli government?
We have seen a switch in the way we interact with the Israel Defense Forces. In the past, for example in 2022 or 2023, there was a change, but we still had conversations with the Israel Defense Forces, which is a very talkative army. Lots of armies in the world are very silent. But Israel Defense Forces are specific in having many spokespersons. And usually, when a journalist had been targeted, killed or attacked, we received an apology or a promise of an investigation. Now we've seen a total switch. And on top of the accusation that we bring, we see that the response is a defamation of the journalists, saying that they were terrorists, they were part of Hamas, or that they had a camera in one hand and a Kalashnikov in the other one. And that is not true. That's preposterous. So that's why we're very worried by this switch by the Israeli Defense Forces. We were not accustomed to it.

Is it really not true? Because in October last year, the Israeli Defense Forces released a report claiming they had obtained information proving that at least six Al Jazeera's journalists have links with Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Al Jazeera calls these fabricated accusations. But this is not the first such case. Does your organization intervene in such disputes?
We do. First of all, we think that any accusation made against journalists should be looked into, because we do not want to defend a journalist that has ties with Hamas or is politically and militarily involved. That would not be responsible on our part. So we're very cautious about looking into that. But when we looked at the so-called evidence of the Israeli Defense Forces, we were very shocked. Some of the so-called documents were photos of lists in a kind of Excel format with registration enlistment dates, which are totally preposterous. I understand that you can't be an engineer for Hamas when you are younger than 12. Yet that's what the document stated. I'm not saying it's a fake document. But we do not take these accusations seriously after having a contextualized look at this so-called evidence.

The Israeli organization Honest Reporting accused some freelance photojournalists of having prior knowledge of the October 7 attacks in 2023. Major global media like CNN, AP, Reuters, etc. rejected these claims. But reportedly, according to the Washington Post, at least one of these media cut ties with the photojournalists who faced those accusations. Has your organization examined the extent to which Palestinian journalists are independent of Hamas or not?
First of all, we need to say that the Hamas administration, in power in Gaza, has been very hostile to the press. It's very important to say, because it's really obvious that what Hamas wants is not journalism. It wants communication. It wants communication to serve its actions, to serve its enlistment. We've seen that during the terrorist attacks. There were some communication officers of Hamas filming the attacks. That's horrible.

That's basically propaganda.
That's total propaganda, yes. It's obvious that a war of images is being conducted by Hamas. And so we are very selective in the people we support at RSF. And we look into their past statements and their professional qualities. And we see two different types of journalists that we've supported, which are very interesting. We see, first of all, journalists that are historically tied to and have been trained by international media - AP reporters, AFP reporters, Al Jazeera reporters. And they're doing a great job. And I think they have been defamed in many ways by some of the claims of Honest Reporting and other organizations. 

The others are self-made journalists that have taken the responsibility mostly via social media, but also in association with established legacy media outlets. They have decided that their mission is to report fairly and honestly about what's happening. So these are the two main categories of journalists that we support. They have done a great job, because when the blockage of the Gaza Strip started, no media outlet from the outside world was able to enter. So the coverage of the conflict was mostly made by Palestinian journalists in Gaza. And they were really the honor of the profession during this conflict because, as I said, they are civilians. So they have to queue for water. They have to queue for food. They have to take care of their families. They have to relocate from northern Gaza to southern Gaza. And in the meantime, they continued reporting until exhaustion with very limited internet, very limited equipment. We're very grateful for what they've done.

And that's still true, right? That the Israeli government doesn't want any international journalists to enter Gaza. Only Palestinian journalists are operating in the area. And you want to open the gates for international media to enter Gaza. Are you in contact with the Israeli government on this topic?
Absolutely. And we think it's important that this happens fast. We understand that the priority is humanitarian aid. We definitely understand that. But we've seen that there have been people legally challenging the Israeli Defense Forces decision to close the strip to the press. And they have failed. So we think that at some point under international pressure, if it amounts and grows, the Israeli Defense Forces will be forced to open the strip. It's about time that we get to see from the international perspective the devastation in Gaza. And to tell the story of the populations from a different angle. And to try to understand how the reconstruction can be operated.

“Journalists are not in prison. Regimes lock them up.” Those are your words again. Last fall, I conducted an interview with Alsu Kurumasheva, a reporter from Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, who returned after nine months in a Russian prison. She's now raising awareness of other journalists who remain in Russian prisons. Are you exerting any pressure on Russia to release these men and women?
It's difficult to exert pressure on Russia. I would say that Russia is exerting pressure on the rest of the world. What we are doing is campaigning for some of these journalists. We think that it's really important that chancellories, governments, especially within the EU, make it a priority. And I don't want to sound like there is no hope. We sometimes intervene and work on cases that look hopeless. Alsu's case, for example, was a very difficult one. And Ivan Gershkovich, the other American journalist who was–

Who was released with her.
Yes. And we knew from our conversations with the White House and other administrations within the US government that there was the possibility of a prisoner exchange. What's amazing is to what extent this exchange of prisoners was conducted. I think it’s one of the largest exchanges of prisoners with the Federation of Russia. And we're very grateful to President Biden and the negotiators who enabled Russian democratic leaders to be part of this exchange as well. The problem is that we're switching true journalists for true criminals. And that shouldn't be the case. 

Do you have any information about another major prison exchange that's going to happen in a few weeks or months?
If I had it, I wouldn't disclose it.

Speaking of the one last year, Belarus journalists weren't in the prison exchange. Aleksandr Lukashenko is still president of Belarus. Your organization recently filed a lawsuit with the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity, especially regarding the regime's treatment of journalists. Do you think it can change anything, the lawsuit you filed?
International justice is a long shot. It takes a long time until it has any effect. But what's interesting, and what we see with pure metrics, is that it attracts international attention. And international attention on Belarus is much needed. We think that the conflict in Ukraine is a major conflict. It's one of the battlefields of journalism. One of its backstories is the exodus of Russian independent journalists. Another backstory is what's happening in Belarus. And we need to focus on the cases of journalists that are jailed and on the impressive move that independent journalists have done in exodus, in exile, to continue reporting on what's happening in Belarus. So Belarus to us could be a real blind spot in the reporting of the press. That's why we're trying to find a way to revive interest. 

This kind of filing is also very interesting because we're trying to put shame on Lukashenko. What we don't want is a normalization of his position, of his presence on the international scene. We use the notion of crime against humanity, which might sound big, but it is legally responsible to use those terms, because we are talking about a regime that has persecuted hundreds of journalists over the past decades. And we are seeing a systematic persecution of journalists. All of this amounts to a crime against humanity.

Is it possible to report at least somehow independently from Belarus right now?
What we have to understand is there has been a change in the way exile media operates. We are now no longer in the Cold War, where you had newsrooms established on the other side of the Berlin Wall that were broadcasting information towards locked territories. Now the information circulates - very weirdly, but efficiently. So most of the Russian or Belarusian exile media still have sources in their home territory. They are still able to collect information, but also disseminate it back. That's why we think it's very important to work on the secrecy and safety of sources. 

But also to work on the distribution of information. RSF is operating a satellite package towards the Federation of Russia and occupied territories of Ukraine. It's called Svoboda. It's important that the Russian population is able to access free information. And there is lots of very interesting independent journalism being produced either by international sources or by Russian newsrooms in exile. 

So we think, yes, freedom and safety are important. But we also need to try and break the silence and bring back journalism where it should be.

Back to the Middle East with your last quote. “Journalists do not disappear. They are kidnapped.” According to your annual report, 55 journalists are currently held hostage, many of them in Syria where they were kidnapped by the ISIS terrorist organization. Since the change of the Syrian regime, have you obtained any new information about their whereabouts?
We are concerned that while we have information about some of the journalists that we are looking for, for the vast majority of the other journalists, we have no idea what became of them. It's a dramatic situation. We had initial hopes in the very first hours after the fall of Bashar al-Assad, but with time passing, we're becoming very pessimistic. There are chances that the Bashar al-Assad regime has secured some of these journalists within their remaining territories that they control, or that they've been sent to Iran. All of this requires more investigation. We're doing it. We're trying to understand what happened in the final hours. And in the final hours, believe me, one of the concerns of the Bashar al-Assad regime was to try to hide its crimes and continue persecuting journalists. In the very final hours, they were still trying to harass and silence journalists.

You said that some of the journalists were possibly moved to Iran in the final hours of the Bashar al-Assad regime. So they are perhaps in Iranian detention, or…?
We don't know precisely where they are. What we are concerned about is that there is no official information, there was no Red Cross visit. That's why we consider them hostages, because they are not claimed as prisoners by any force. That's the worst situation, honestly. And I have a great respect for the families of Syrian journalists and of international journalists who have disappeared in Syria, because they are continuously campaigning for their loved ones. And as long as they are not presented with evidence of what happened, they will continue. It takes a lot of nerve to do that.

Are you following the story of the American journalist Austin Tice? He was kidnapped near Damascus 13 years ago, maybe. He's been missing ever since. His mother has recently returned to Syria to find him. Do you have any updates about if he's alive?
Deborah Tice, the mother of Austin Tice, is a friend of Reporters Without Borders. We have been campaigning for Austin since the beginning, since 2012. I think there's a lot of emotion around this case because Austin was really somebody that showed and expressed how much he believed it was his mission to report freely. I have a personal connection to him in some ways, because we attended the same university in the U.S. - Georgetown University. 

So you know each other? 
I don't think so, actually. We discussed it with his mom, and apparently we were never in the same class or anything. But he has been one of our iconic cases in the past years. And I'm going to tell a story, apologies. 

One of the most difficult moments in my life at RSF was when a video surfaced of an American prisoner wandering through the streets of a small city outside of Damascus. We thought it could be Austin Tice. So I had to make the phone call to his mom to say: Deborah, look at this video and tell me if it's Austin or not. And it was not. It was a heartbreaking phone call. My hair is standing up on my arm as I say this right now. It was really, really tough to hear her say: I promise you it's not my son. And deep inside, me and my colleagues shared the same thing - we shared the same feeling. We were hoping it was a miracle. We were hoping it was him. Everything could make that possible, but it was not. So we're continuing. 

And you still have hope?
There's still hope. The Biden administration has made claims, based on evidence, that he has been kept by the Bashar al-Assad regime. He's an asset. He's an American citizen. And for these guys, as despicable as it sounds, there’s a difference between the cost of life depending on nationality. So he was stored in a secret prison. And we think that he could be one of those prisoners who were moved in the final hours. We will continue searching for him as best we can, with means on the ground. It's very important. We have a list of possible jails and we have lists of witnesses that we are interviewing one by one. And we will continue until the end. 

This is not just about Austin Tice. Reporters Without Borders, in your annual report, mentioned the story of the two Radio Coton journalists in Mali who were kidnapped in 2023, as well as journalists abducted in Yemen by Houthi's group. Given everything we've discussed today, do you feel that the global situation for journalists is getting worse?
It is getting worse. You mentioned some of the cases we're working on. What's important to say is that there's this fantasy of international reporters, which we see in fiction. But most of the price of reporting is being paid by local and national journalists. They're doing a great job in communities where it's not always easy to be a journalist. We are very concerned about the assaults on the safety of journalists. It’s also important to understand that you can save journalists. But if you don't save journalism, if journalism can't thrive and remain central in the public conversation, if politicians do not respect its role, if journalism is not favored by the algorithms and tech chaos undermines its ability to reach its audience, then all of this has been pointless. So that's why we need to mobilize for journalists. But we also need to mobilize for journalism as a profession, as a social responsibility, as something of value, that enables you to make individual and collective choices, whether it's about your education, your health, your political choices. All this is grounded in the information you get. As far as I know, the most professional collection of information you can get is professional journalism.