Klitschko: Peace, then elections. Political competition can destroy Ukraine from the inside

Kyiv 20. ledna 2024 Sdílet na Facebooku Sdílet na Twitteru Sdílet na LinkedIn Tisknout Kopírovat url adresu Zkrácená adresa Kopírovat do schránky Zavřít

🇨🇿  Tato epizoda je dostupná také v české verzi

Josef Pazderka contributed to this interview.

Kyiv has been facing massive Russian missile attacks in recent weeks. Did you expect that it would happen again, that Russia would start bombing the Ukrainian capital again?
Definitely, from the beginning of the war, Kyiv was a target for the Russians and is still a target of Russian missiles and Russian politics, because it’s the capital of Ukraine, the heart of the country. And that's why the Russians tried to destroy our infrastructure, to destroy normal life in our hometown, to bring a depressive mood to our citizens. There is no other explanation for why to destroy normal life, to leave people freezing during the winter, to live without water, electricity. And last winter was the most difficult winter ever, because we had a huge deficit of energy, more than 60%. And that's why for the first time in our history, we stopped public transportation, electric public transportation, our subway and trains. But this year it's a little bit better, because we have a modern anti-missile system from our partners, but Kyiv was and still is a target. And right now, during this moment, there is an air alarm. There is an alarm right now, everyone has to go to the shelters, because any second the Russian missiles can destroy normal peaceful life in our hometown.

Can you continue in the interview with the air raids right now?
Yeah, I can continue the interview.

Alright, alright. It seems that finding a perfect defense against the attacks is almost impossible. I read a few months ago that an audit found that only 15% of 4,600 home shelters in Kyiv are usable. Has the situation improved?
To be honest, nobody from us expected war in the present time, and we don't have a lot of shelters. Right now the population in Kyiv in the last couple of years has been growing. Before the war, the population in our hometown was 3.8 million people and right now it’s a little bit less, about 3.5 million people. The city is full, and to be honest, we do not have enough shelters in our hometown. We are doing it now, providing a renovation and building new ones.

Do you believe that Ukraine could find a way to prevent similar attacks?
The anti-missile system helps us so much, and actually, the last attacks in the past couple of months, we shot down almost every missile and kamikaze drone that flew in the direction of our hometown. Thank you to our partners, thank you for modern anti-missile systems. Right now, the lives of our citizens are more protected than before, but the risk is still there.

Would you say that the deadlock on the front lines somehow contributes to the attack on Kyiv?
Yes, of course. As I said, Kiev is the heart of the country. On the stable situation in the heart of the country, in the capital, depends the stable situation in the whole country. And that’s why Kyiv was the main target and still is the main target for the Russians.

I read your recent interview with Der Spiegel, and you mentioned in this interview that Ukraine is moving towards authoritarianism. Can you tell me how?
One more thing first - I want to explain the reason for this war, the sense of this war. Putin never accepted Ukraine as an independent country. Putin never accepted our wish to be a part of the European family. Putin sees Ukraine as part of the Russian Federation. We don't want to live in authoritarianism. We are fighting for our democratic future. We want to be part of the European family and part of the democratic world. We are fighting for that. And I understand that the war is a very unusual situation, but during the war we have to save our democratic values. We understand this very unusual situation during the war, but it's very important to save our democratic values that we have in our homeland. But right now we see everything being centralized. We see the centralized media. We see the unfair attack on the South government. And that's why to be quiet and not talk about it, means to agree with it. I don't want to sit and wait. So I definitely say something, which means I advise the central government to not make a mistake. Our main goal is to build a democratic country. That’s what we are fighting for right now and paying a huge price. The lives of our citizens. Lives of our patriots.

And I understand that there is a desire and inclination towards democratic Europe. But how strong is the risk of transitioning to an authoritarian regime?
The risk is always there. It's very important to never make mistakes and to always fix some problems. That’s why our main criteria is that we want to be part of the democratic world. And that's why democratic values have to be a priority for our homeland if we want to be a part of the European democratic family.

Has the president called you regarding your remarks? Such criticism may seem quite severe… Could this be a problem? Particularly in wartime?
Sometimes the central government is unhappy, as I can also sometimes be, to take criticism as help, which shows you your weak side and how to be the better. And it's very important not to make mistakes. It's very important to unite around the country. We are now seeing the political competition during the war inside the country, which can destroy the country from the inside. And that's why our unity inside the country, our unity around Ukraine, is the key to peace and freedom in Europe. And the key to peace and freedom in our homeland. And that's why it's very important. But still, at the beginning of the war, I didn’t have a contact at the Office of the President.

So you are not in contact with him?
I am not in contact with them. It's not just me, it's the whole South government in Ukraine.

And isn't it a problem - as the mayor of Kyiv, as the mayor of the capital - to not be in contact with the president of the country during wartime?
Actually for doing my job, regarding the services in our hometown, regarding all the challenges that we have, it would be very helpful to unite. It would be very helpful to communicate. Because all the challenges that we have are challenges not just for our hometown. They are challenges for our homeland. I do my job as well as I can, but with the help of the central government it would be much more effective. But the ambitions of some people are sometimes much more important than the interest of the country. It's a mistake.

You have warned against disunity, if I understood it right. Do you think that there is a risk that the lack of communication since the beginning of the war might convey a sense of disunity and play into the Russians’ hands?
Yes, of course. The unity inside the country is the key for peace and freedom. And that's why we need unity. We have to work together. And political games right now during the war are the biggest mistake. Some people make their political ambitions a priority. Right now the question of the country, the future of the country, is whether we will still be an independent Ukraine or face the huge risk of being occupied by the Russian Federation. That's why unity is very critically important. Unity. We have to forget about political flags. We have to unite around one flag. The yellow and blue Ukrainian flag. All political forces. We have to be united. Forget about ambition. Forget about political parties. Right now it’s one party. Ukraine. United Ukraine. Independent Ukraine. We have to save Ukraine. And that's why I don't want to talk about political games. It would be the biggest mistake that we can make.

In the beginning of our interview, you thanked your partners. Maybe possible disunity could discourage your partners from sending you more weapons? Are you afraid of that?
Defensive weapons – we need defensive weapons because we are defending our homeland. And it depends a lot on the help of our partners. To be honest, without the help of our partners, we can’t survive. And that's why the will to win is very important. We Ukrainians actually surprised the whole world with our unbroken spirit, our warrior spirit. But modern weapons are also very important for that. That's why we are very thankful for the support for Ukraine with defensive weapons. And as for the question of if it's enough or not - it's not enough. It will be enough only in the moment when peace returns to our homeland. We need the weapons in Ukraine to defend our homeland first. And everyone in Europe has to understand. We are defending not just our homes and our families. We are defending every one of you. Because Putin will go as far as we allow him to go. It’s no secret. Putin has the crazy idea to rebuild the Soviet empire. The Russians talk about Ukraine never being independent. They talk about the Baltic countries, which were part of Russia. They talk about Slovakia and Czechia. And as I tell the German audience because I spent many years in Germany, please never forget that a big part of Germany was also part of the Soviet empire. Putin worked as a KGB agent in Germany for years. So please never underestimate the risk to Europe. Right now, we are defending not just our homeland. We are defending every one of you. And everyone has to understand it clearly.

President Zelenskiy's wife Olena Zelenska said on BBC that you should mind your own business. Critics suggest that you struggle to manage Kyiv. Besides the air raids and the missile attacks, how is Kyiv doing right now?
From the beginning of the war we have never had a front line in our hometown. But kamikaze drones and Russian missiles destroyed more than 800 buildings. 450 apartment buildings in our city were destroyed. More than 200 people - I am talking about civilians - were killed by Russian missiles. And 7 children. It's genocide. It's terrorism, that the Russians are doing to our hometown.

Criticism has been directed as well at the infrastructure for example. And as far as I know Prague - as the capital of the Czech Republic - sent some substantial material aid to Kyiv including some old trams, buses etc. Did it prove helpful or is more needed? Would you consider visiting Prague in order to negotiate further help?
The defensive weapons are very important. Also, resistance is our next challenge, and that's why we are very thankful for electric generators, which we received from our partners last winter. We are very thankful for the buses and other communal transportation that we received, and for the many other forms of aid that we received from our partners. It's critically important for us. Life-important. And that's why I will never tire of saying a thousand times: thank you to everyone who helped Ukraine. And we still need it. We have to be strong at the front lines. We have to be strong inside the country. We have to be strong outside of the country, in terms of our politics. And we have to be united. The central government with the local government. We have to be united across all parties. Because right now the question is: will Ukraine survive or not?

Is Ukraine united on the possibility of holding presidential elections in Ukraine this spring?
Any election, any political election, during the war is poison for the country. It's a political competition. It's always populism, in every country. Sometimes it's not a fair game, and that's why an election or any competition, as long as we have war in our country, is just political competition that can destroy the country from the inside. And that's why it's poison. An election would be poison. We have to have patience. So my personal opinion is no elections during the war.

Yes, thank you for your answer. But there is a political competition in Ukraine right now. So isn't it fair to have an election as we all see?
I told you: political competition during the war is very bad for the country.

Ok, so you agree with President Zelensky that it's not possible to have an election in March. And we will see maybe in the future, maybe in the fall, maybe next year.
I guess this will be very objective and make sense. When the war stops there will be time for an election. Right now, it's no secret that almost 9 million Ukrainians are outside of the country*. There are a lot of refugees. Also there are exactly the same number of people or refugees who moved within the country. And then there is a big part of our citizens right now wearing military uniforms, fighting at the front line. If we are talking about elections, we need equal opportunities for everyone. What about the question of the soldier on the front line, the question of the observers, the question of how we count our citizens outside the country. We have many more questions than answers. I also mentioned political competition inside the country. And that's why it is my personal opinion and a lot of experts say exactly the same: First we need peace for Ukraine and after that we can talk about elections.

No matter when the election will be, would you consider running?
There's no reason to talk about the election. Right now the question is whether we survive or not. It’s very bad if political ambitions take priority over the interest of the country. Forget about personal ambitions. The interest of the country has priority.

What do regular Ukrainians need to hear most at this moment?
Endurance is very important. I understand right now a lot of people are tired from the war. Everyone in Ukraine has a dream of coming back to a peaceful life. Everyone wishes for peace to come back to our homeland. It's very important. But it’s also very important to have endurance. It's very important to have conditions. It's very important to stay strong. We hope that in this year, 2024, peace will come back to our homeland. But it's very important to be strong. Yes, of course, it's a difficult situation. But from my personal view, I have a sports background and sometimes in round number 7, 8, 9, you're very tired, but you never forget the opponent across from you. You better not, or it’s a worse situation. Can you imagine one of the most powerful people in the Russian Federation going to North Korea to ask about weapons? It is also a signal that the Russians do not have an easy situation. I'm more than sure that one day, more and more voices in Russia will question Putin and the government. Why are world brands leaving Russia? The iron curtain is coming back - for what reason? Russians are not welcome around the world anymore, why? And the main question: for what reason did my son, my husband, my relatives die? And I'm more than sure that Putin will receive these questions very soon. But right now we have to be strong and defend our homes and our families.

Vitaly, I really appreciate all your answers, thank you very much for your time and good luck.
I want to say thank you very much to the Czech Republic. I know so many refugees from Ukraine right now are in the Czech Republic. I know how much the Czech Republic supports Ukraine in any direction. And we very much appreciate that. Thank you, thank you, thank you to everyone who supports Ukraine. Please don't forget. We are defending not just our homes, we are defending every one of you. And we really appreciate and will never forget your solidarity. Thank you for that.